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Unforgiven Pretender
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PostSubject: Achievement rule   Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:42 pm

I want to make a suggestion about changing a certain rule concerning the achievements system.
Currently, the rule is that only against WDA members, one can earn achievements. Notably, only by means of an official duel (Posting in duel arena, getting it confirmed)

I personally think it would be better if just a screeny of the achievement occuring, should be enough to get the achievement. (So, for example against a random opponent on DN)
So, I'd like to suggest that this rule would be changed.

I think the staff can trust the members in being honest about making no deck restrictions. (Which is the only reason why I think the rule is currently here)
Furthermore, trying to get achievements with 'random people' will get those people interested in WDA when you explain what you are trying to do and why. This could very likely make us gain more members.

I think the pros of this suggestion outweigh the cons.
Step by step, we can together make the academy a better place. =)



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:52 pm

some people can chet by dueling their friends and getting acheivments .-. (like nour :P)
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:02 am

Silver wrote:
some people can chet by dueling their friends and getting acheivments .-. (like nour :P)

This happends even if that rule is here, which further confirms it's uselesness.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:50 am

as silver said people can arrange these things with people on dn they know,it could happen here but it honestly barley does,and people here honestly don't duel much,also this opens the chance for u to just go to a duel do something to make your opponent quit then turn the field into w.e. you want,take a screen shot and get the achievement,this would make getting achievement points much easier to the point where they're not worth much,achievements are not supposed to be easy


Last edited by darkdiviner597 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:20 am

darkdiviner597 wrote:

it could happen here but it honestly barley does,and people here honestly don't duel much

Take a look at nour's achievement duels, and then get back to me.
Her duels for achievement are all against fun decks, obviously not an 'open duel'.

She's a member of the staff and doesn't follow the rule, so obviously the rule is redundant.

So, there are two options:
1. You guys force everyone, including the staff to follow those rules.
2. The rule that has failed to be enforced goes away, and we attract more members to WDA by dueling them for achievements.

I'd love to have seen the rule enforced from the start, but since that didn't happen, it would be unfair to everyone to keep the rule, unless past achievements get checked again.
If that can't be done, WDA should give everyone equal chances by deleting the rule, even if deleting the rule might make cheating easier. It happens anyway...



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:28 am

Unforgiven Pretender wrote:
darkdiviner597 wrote:

it could happen here but it honestly barley does,and people here honestly don't duel much

Take a look at nour's achievement duels, and then get back to me.
Her duels for achievement are all against fun decks, obviously not an 'open duel'.

She's a member of the staff and doesn't follow the rule, so obviously the rule is redundant.

So, there are two options:
1. You guys force everyone, including the staff to follow those rules.
2. The rule that has failed to be enforced goes away, and we attract more members to WDA by dueling them for achievements.

I'd love to have seen the rule enforced from the start, but since that didn't happen, it would be unfair to everyone to keep the rule, unless past achievements get checked again.
If that can't be done, WDA should give everyone equal chances by deleting the rule, even if deleting the rule might make cheating easier. It happens anyway...

I'm sorry UP. i know we smooth this over but i must say your facts are somewhat wrong. An Open tier match can be done with ANY deck fun, tier 0 , etc it doesn't matter in open tier. The official part comes from the confirmation in a post. Let's face the truth can an achievement deck ever win again a Tier 0 deck in the arena. Knowing some people here who have a very small chance of actually doing it, it can't be done. Of course some achievements are easy to claim like attacking with Maxx C or Exodia but most of the achievements are based on thinking and having an enjoyable time with things in the game no one would dare look at because of the top tier decks. Yeah doing this would promote WDA, but in what kind of way? Positively or Negatively? And with my history on DN i don't trust random people with their lack of ruling knowledge, cheating, abusive comments, and many other things. For those who can't play yes this would be a benefit for them and us since we would get a new member and they get knowledge. But as for those negative members of DN who would constantly argue with us trying to prove they're wrong point is right or giving emotionally outrageous outbursts, or other things i'm failing to notice, Are these people we want to bring us down? Those people will either forget us or trash us. Personally you're too trusting. And to let you know I never awarded an achievement without checking it. If i missed something then Al would point it out to me and fix it since achievements began that only happened 3 times. I find your lack of trust in my past duty kind of insulting as a person. I think this wall of text went on long enough. So please counter with your wall of text. I want to see how you see this whole thing by the way you say it.


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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:05 am

Unforgiven Pretender wrote:
darkdiviner597 wrote:

it could happen here but it honestly barley does,and people here honestly don't duel much

Take a look at nour's achievement duels, and then get back to me.
Her duels for achievement are all against fun decks, obviously not an 'open duel'.

She's a member of the staff and doesn't follow the rule, so obviously the rule is redundant.

So, there are two options:
1. You guys force everyone, including the staff to follow those rules.
2. The rule that has failed to be enforced goes away, and we attract more members to WDA by dueling them for achievements.

I'd love to have seen the rule enforced from the start, but since that didn't happen, it would be unfair to everyone to keep the rule, unless past achievements get checked again.
If that can't be done, WDA should give everyone equal chances by deleting the rule, even if deleting the rule might make cheating easier. It happens anyway...

u keep saying nour,well i have dueled nour and seen some of her achievement duels,some of them(the ones that don't require winning)were actually against good decks,and also sometimes makes it 2 achievement decks against each other,it's not cheated or wrong to do that,and also when some1 tells you i am trying an achievement deck some people might take it as a chance to test some random deck,unless you show a screen shot proof that some1 actually did something against the rules all ur saying is bs
i am more than sure no1 here ever cheated for an achievement


Last edited by darkdiviner597 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:29 am

Quote :
I'm sorry UP. i know we smooth this over but i must say your facts are somewhat wrong. An Open tier match can be done with ANY deck fun, tier 0 , etc it doesn't matter in open tier.

Do you claim that achievements are in fact supposed to be easy?
Furthermore, in open tier there are no deck restrictions, meaning a verbal agreement of using said 'fun decks' contradicts the rules.
Indeed, the staff smooths it over, and that's exactly my point: Why have a rule when it is not enforced?
A rule is implemented to be enforced as it is stated, it's not meant to be bent at will, or 'smoothed over'.

Quote :
Let's face the truth can an achievement deck ever win again a Tier 0 deck in the arena. Knowing some people here who have a very small chance of actually doing it, it can't be done.

Allow me to quote the official definition of an achievement here:
" Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance"
They are supposed to be hard. Allowing people to bend the system to their own hand eliminates the whole meaning of achieving something.

Quote :
Yeah doing this would promote WDA, but in what kind of way? Positively or Negatively? And with my history on DN i don't trust random people with their lack of ruling knowledge, cheating, abusive comments, and many other things. For those who can't play yes this would be a benefit for them and us since we would get a new member and they get knowledge. But as for those negative members of DN who would constantly argue with us trying to prove they're wrong point is right or giving emotionally outrageous outbursts, or other things i'm failing to notice, Are these people we want to bring us down? Those people will either forget us or trash us. Personally you're too trusting.

Simply do not invite people to WDA who react the way you describe here. Invite those who react positively. It's completely optional. We'd only gain from it. I truly do not understand why you do not want to have something that enables members to promote WDA more in a positive way to those who react positively to the achievements.

Quote :
And to let you know I never awarded an achievement without checking it. If i missed something then Al would point it out to me and fix it since achievements began that only happened 3 times. I find your lack of trust in my past duty kind of insulting as a person.

I've never attacked you as a person and I find it unprofessional that you claim that I did. Can we please keep this topic focussed on the business at hand, without accusing others of insulting said person?
I care for the wellbeing of this academy and I post here because I do, not to offend anyone.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:16 am

Well I am just going to state my honest and personal opinion.
For one I think the biggest reason that the rule is there is so you don't go and duel some random DN lobby noob who barely knows how to play and has a sixty card deck and no extra deck....Of course you'll be able to easily pull off some achievements.
And another thing about what UP said {I didn't read everything so sorry if I am inaccurate} But if you ask someone to use a fun deck in a open duel......So what? Where does it say you have to use a top tier deck in an open Duel/Match? Where does it say you cannot ask your opponent to use a fun deck?.....That's the opponents choice to either use a competitive deck or a w/e deck....
Anyway all in all it wouldn't make much sense to get achievements from random duels.... That's like saying that the achievement that says "Win 1st place in a tourny/live tourny" it's like saying oh I did a DN live tourny so im going to go claim that achievement....Or I did a tournament in a different academy and won so ima claim that achievement too. Just simply put WDA achievements are for WDA duels/events thats pretty simple to me .-.

Anyway just my opinion on the matter carry on :P




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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:18 am

I appreciate your input, but please do read the whole topic next time, since I addressed your concerns.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:14 am

Sorry for the double post, but I'd appreciate a response from RagingDarkness, or anyone else of the staff to the last somewhat lengthy post I made.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:37 am

Unforgiven Pretender wrote:
Quote :
I'm sorry UP. i know we smooth this over but i must say your facts are somewhat wrong. An Open tier match can be done with ANY deck fun, tier 0 , etc it doesn't matter in open tier.

Do you claim that achievements are in fact supposed to be easy?
Furthermore, in open tier there are no deck restrictions, meaning a verbal agreement of using said 'fun decks' contradicts the rules.
Indeed, the staff smooths it over, and that's exactly my point: Why have a rule when it is not enforced?
A rule is implemented to be enforced as it is stated, it's not meant to be bent at will, or 'smoothed over'.

Quote :
Let's face the truth can an achievement deck ever win again a Tier 0 deck in the arena. Knowing some people here who have a very small chance of actually doing it, it can't be done.

Allow me to quote the official definition of an achievement here:
" Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance"
They are supposed to be hard. Allowing people to bend the system to their own hand eliminates the whole meaning of achieving something.

Quote :
Yeah doing this would promote WDA, but in what kind of way? Positively or Negatively? And with my history on DN i don't trust random people with their lack of ruling knowledge, cheating, abusive comments, and many other things. For those who can't play yes this would be a benefit for them and us since we would get a new member and they get knowledge. But as for those negative members of DN who would constantly argue with us trying to prove they're wrong point is right or giving emotionally outrageous outbursts, or other things i'm failing to notice, Are these people we want to bring us down? Those people will either forget us or trash us. Personally you're too trusting.

Simply do not invite people to WDA who react the way you describe here. Invite those who react positively. It's completely optional. We'd only gain from it. I truly do not understand why you do not want to have something that enables members to promote WDA more in a positive way to those who react positively to the achievements.

Quote :
And to let you know I never awarded an achievement without checking it. If i missed something then Al would point it out to me and fix it since achievements began that only happened 3 times. I find your lack of trust in my past duty kind of insulting as a person.

I've never attacked you as a person and I find it unprofessional that you claim that I did. Can we please keep this topic focussed on the business at hand, without accusing others of insulting said person?
I care for the wellbeing of this academy and I post here because I do, not to offend anyone.
At an open match, the users can choose any deck they want and that is that. Do you want us to ban using fun decks in open matches? Or do you have a better idea? The users can use from a random deck to hieratic FTK.

Sure, achievements are supposed to be hard as you say, but the user you are going against has nothing to do with the achievement. Whatever they do, if you get the achievement, you get it.

If you want duels against random people, then aren't you simply denying what you just said? The user can have a positive attitude, but they might be using a bad deck or be bad players? But anyway, an achievement must be against WDA users and that is that.

And I don't mean to be offensive in any way.


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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:49 am

UP i'm sry but i feel that the use of achievements only being between our members is another way of keeping things in check. As a member of SGA i understand the importance of having checks and balances on things and this is one of those times when it is very much needed. we all know how easy it is to make a DN person rage quit, or hell merely how easy they can be some times. not that our members are cheaters but if they're in a duel with a dn person and they just quit our person can then adjust thier field to make their achievement and then post. with no confirmation needed it's a free achievement and that's not fair or right to those that try to actually achieve them.

don't get me wrong UP i'm not saying that what ur saying is bad, i mean that is a good way to showcase how unique we are however if we're going to worry about using different tactics to recruit i'd suggest we make a team like they do in the real world and let that team take care of heavy recruitment.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:14 am

new achievement rule : you can duel random people on dn for achievements, if you cheat, get caught, or anything.. your AP gets reset, do it twice..perm ban

everyone agree? :P




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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:23 am

Unforgiven Pretender wrote:
Quote :
I'm sorry UP. i know we smooth this over but i must say your facts are somewhat wrong. An Open tier match can be done with ANY deck fun, tier 0 , etc it doesn't matter in open tier.

Do you claim that achievements are in fact supposed to be easy?
Furthermore, in open tier there are no deck restrictions, meaning a verbal agreement of using said 'fun decks' contradicts the rules.
Indeed, the staff smooths it over, and that's exactly my point: Why have a rule when it is not enforced?
A rule is implemented to be enforced as it is stated, it's not meant to be bent at will, or 'smoothed over'.

Quote :
Let's face the truth can an achievement deck ever win again a Tier 0 deck in the arena. Knowing some people here who have a very small chance of actually doing it, it can't be done.

Allow me to quote the official definition of an achievement here:
" Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance"
They are supposed to be hard. Allowing people to bend the system to their own hand eliminates the whole meaning of achieving something.

Quote :
Yeah doing this would promote WDA, but in what kind of way? Positively or Negatively? And with my history on DN i don't trust random people with their lack of ruling knowledge, cheating, abusive comments, and many other things. For those who can't play yes this would be a benefit for them and us since we would get a new member and they get knowledge. But as for those negative members of DN who would constantly argue with us trying to prove they're wrong point is right or giving emotionally outrageous outbursts, or other things i'm failing to notice, Are these people we want to bring us down? Those people will either forget us or trash us. Personally you're too trusting.

Simply do not invite people to WDA who react the way you describe here. Invite those who react positively. It's completely optional. We'd only gain from it. I truly do not understand why you do not want to have something that enables members to promote WDA more in a positive way to those who react positively to the achievements.

Quote :
And to let you know I never awarded an achievement without checking it. If i missed something then Al would point it out to me and fix it since achievements began that only happened 3 times. I find your lack of trust in my past duty kind of insulting as a person.

I've never attacked you as a person and I find it unprofessional that you claim that I did. Can we please keep this topic focussed on the business at hand, without accusing others of insulting said person?
I care for the wellbeing of this academy and I post here because I do, not to offend anyone.
mhm,i'm just gonna say
for 1
many achievements don't even specify open tier,and people do achievements on kiddy pool to make sure the opponent isn't using tier 1 decks and also,open match means ANY deck,yes any deck at all,and agreeing not to use a certain deck or keep the decks at a certain level is not wrong if both sides agree,it doesn't break any rule,it doesn't go against anything
and no one here cheats in duels,dueling with both using achievement decks is ok,it will give the winner an achievement and they would have a better chance at doing so cuz they know the other isn't using a strong deck,achievements are still hard,but if they all happened against tier 1 decks in open matches then many of them would be simply impossible and thus making achievements not worth trying to get,u are supposed to be able to do normal achievements,cuz it makes u want to duel more to gain more achievement points,thus being more active,and no the achievements aren't too easy,the achievements are just fine
and making them be ok against anyone on dn is just a bad idea and would make them far too easy
so ur actually going against urself,ur saying u want them to be ok on dn,but u don't want us to be able to do them against non-meta decks in open matches,if both those things u want happen then it would be the same as it is now,and if we were able to do it against people from dn,then we'd have to change open match and specific things on achievements for just a duel,or if they keep it at match it won't be open,basically u'd just have to win any match,so they'll just say it's a kiddy pool match,resulting in the same thing that u say is a problem right now but with people getting a bit less rank points,along with it being easier cuz u can do it with people on dn

congrats,u just made achievement points worthless
all u accomplished was making the academy more colorful
i hope ur happy



Last edited by darkdiviner597 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:25 am

Yuna wrote:
new achievement rule : you can duel random people on dn for achievements, if you cheat, get caught, or anything.. your AP gets reset, do it twice..perm ban

everyone agree? :P
no1 is stupid enough to get caught
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:27 am

Quote :
At an open match, the users can choose any deck they want and that is that. Do you want us to ban using fun decks in open matches? Or do you have a better idea? The users can use from a random deck to hieratic FTK.

Sure, achievements are supposed to be hard as you say, but the user you are going against has nothing to do with the achievement. Whatever they do, if you get the achievement, you get it.

This is partially the case here, since I always catch people who try to get achievements, saying something along the lines of 'Hey, want to duel, I'm going to try and get an achievement'. Or even 'I want to get an achievement, and if you use any meta deck, I will ragequit' < I think you all know who I mean here.
The above two quotes both encourage your opponent to use 'easy' decks, making achievements lose their value.

Quote :
If you want duels against random people, then aren't you simply denying what you just said? The user can have a positive attitude, but they might be using a bad deck or be bad players? But anyway, an achievement must be against WDA users and that is that.

It might seem that way, but I'm actually trying to get equal rules and enforcement of these rules for everyone. This can be done in two ways: 1. Allow everyone to duel everyone in easy matchups and thus make achievements lose it's worth. (Which in some cases it already has, since people make achievements way too easy to complete)
2. Enforce the rulings strictly, by checking if a duel wherein an achievement is completed, is actually worthy of being called 'open tier'. This, to prevent abuse, which is occuring as I've firsthandedly experienced.

As I've said before: Rules are here to be enforced, not to be abused. If abuse is obviously the case, then either the rule should be adapted to prevent it, or the rule should be deleted. The rule is here to make achievements hard, which it fails to do. Shouldn't everyone have equal chances in the system where achievements are actually worthy of being called achievements? ("Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance")


@ Dr. Chuckles, the same as Destined777, I appreciate the input, but please read the whole topic before posting.
In case you did read the whole topic, but only commented on a part of it: If the 'deteting the rule option' is no good, as you've stated, then the option of actually enforcing the rule would be what is the good thing to do in order to have a system that is fair to everyone, right?


@ Darkdiviner, you're saying (almost) the exact same thing as nour. I think I answered your concerns in this post, so I won't comment on it again.
Furthermore:
Quote :
congrats,u just made achievement points worthless
all u accomplished was making the academy more colorful
i hope ur happy
Really?.. I mean come on, please.., go bother someone else with comments like these. I'm very serious about this, and I really do not appreciate childish comments like these.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:40 am

Unforgiven Pretender wrote:
Quote :
At an open match, the users can choose any deck they want and that is that. Do you want us to ban using fun decks in open matches? Or do you have a better idea? The users can use from a random deck to hieratic FTK.

Sure, achievements are supposed to be hard as you say, but the user you are going against has nothing to do with the achievement. Whatever they do, if you get the achievement, you get it.

This is partially the case here, since I always catch people who try to get achievements, saying something along the lines of 'Hey, want to duel, I'm going to try and get an achievement'. Or even 'I want to get an achievement, and if you use any meta deck, I will ragequit' < I think you all know who I mean here.
The above two quotes both encourage your opponent to use 'easy' decks, making achievements lose their value.

Quote :
If you want duels against random people, then aren't you simply denying what you just said? The user can have a positive attitude, but they might be using a bad deck or be bad players? But anyway, an achievement must be against WDA users and that is that.

It might seem that way, but I'm actually trying to get equal rules and enforcement of these rules for everyone. This can be done in two ways: 1. Allow everyone to duel everyone in easy matchups and thus make achievements lose it's worth. (Which in some cases it already has, since people make achievements way too easy to complete)
2. Enforce the rulings strictly, by checking if a duel wherein an achievement is completed, is actually worthy of being called 'open tier'. This, to prevent abuse, which is occuring as I've firsthandedly experienced.

As I've said before: Rules are here to be enforced, not to be abused. If abuse is obviously the case, then either the rule should be adapted to prevent it, or the rule should be deleted. The rule is here to make achievements hard, which it fails to do. Shouldn't everyone have equal chances in the system where achievements are actually worthy of being called achievements? ("Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance")


@ Dr. Chuckles, the same as Destined777, I appreciate the input, but please read the whole topic before posting.
In case you did read the whole topic, but only commented on a part of it: If the 'deteting the rule option' is no good, as you've stated, then the option of actually enforcing the rule would be what is the good thing to do in order to have a system that is fair to everyone, right?

thanks for ignoring me,u do realize many of the duels don't even require open matches,and people see some1 wanting to go for an achievement as an opportunity to get an achievement themselves,enforcing the "rules" ur way would force some of these achievements to be against tier 1 decks,and also saying the opponent uses a tier 2 or semi-competitive deck might cause the person that awards to not be sure whther it's worth it or not,i agree that it's gotten a bit out of hand with some people *cough* karin *cough*,but ur way of dealing with this is also wrong,maybe limiting the amounts of duel achievements u can get in a certain time,or something better that the admins will probably figure out on their own if they choose to consider doing something
i disagree with ur 2 suggestions and i'd like to tell u that neither of them should happen


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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:11 am

Darkdivider i consider your last three posts as spam this is a warning do not spam with huge wallotexts that was clearly spaced out to fill up a page or to make it longer for posting posting sacks. As for Karin, don't get me wrong but asking if people agree to an idea eventually they will demand it so please do not demand a new rule.

As for UP, i still don't know why you are fighting so hard for this rule change. You obviously don't see all the reason behind why we have it the way we do. We have the rule because of checks and balances, preventing cheating, encouraging people to test themselves (with deck building), it encourages more friendly and less serious competition. You sit there on your computer fighting so hard for chaos and encouraging exploitation just for promotion of the academy? Achievements aren't easy. Like have you ever summoned a gate guardian? Have you ever won a duel with a deck with 70% of it fill with genexs against a wind-up loop? Has grave keepers ever ruined you're chance to summon Sophia of The light Creator. Yeah toon worlds achievement deck versus a ojama achievement deck yeah that may seem easy to YOU. We're not all duel expects. We aren't all Sky Acropolis. The achievements are divided into difficulty levels if you have note noticed.

You don't understand that some of us suck at this game. I'm not saying the achievements are easy. It's only easy to people who actually know how to play. Have you ever stopped playing seriously with overpowering deck and just ever dueled for fun? I duel all the time with fun deck and i do it in the open tier. It's the opponents option to duel achievement decks, AND it's THEIR choice to use a fun deck or not. It's just your choice to keep dueling people with meta decks. This whole game is about choices. You don't like the choices people make. But hey why don't we choose not to duel you. Why don't we choose to get rid of the achievement? The achievements PROMOTE the one thing staff wants to promote. We want to promote ACTIVITY, preferable Duel Arena activity at the time of the creation of the achievements. We have the roleplay, GFX, achievements, posting games and create a card as all side functions of WDA.

You don't like the side function you don't have to do it. You choose to do it. The main function of this forum is in the name. World DUELING Academy. Promotion comes second to what we do. Individual members have taken recruitment into their own hands, and we have a few achievements to encourage that. That was those member's choice and the members who came also made the choice to come. We can promote all we want but if they come is a choice. It is my choice right now to take my time to be here and write this. It's your choice to fight back. It's Nour's choice to recurite and duel for achievements. It was Al's choice to post all those achievements. It's Unknown's choice to award the duels, he makes this choice no matter what kind of duel. It's digi's choice to create the dueling leagues. It's all a choice we make and you want people's choices to be changed? My suggestion if this keeps going is to scrap the achievements and let this place go back to a graveyard. That's your choice to keep fighting about this but everything you disapprove of are all choices and not the system. The system was developed by brilliant staff members for our enjoyment. Think about your choice. And i know you will choice to use my words to shoot me down for your own way.


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Last edited by RagingDarkness on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:42 am

Unforgiven Pretender wrote:


@ Darkdiviner, you're saying (almost) the exact same thing as nour. I think I answered your concerns in this post, so I won't comment on it again.
Furthermore:
Quote :
congrats,u just made achievement points worthless
all u accomplished was making the academy more colorful
i hope ur happy
Really?.. I mean come on, please.., go bother someone else with comments like these. I'm very serious about this, and I really do not appreciate childish comments like these.
well if you enforce both those things that will be the end result,we have given u reasons and no one agrees with you i did say i agree that something should be done about the dueling achievements being too easy against people who agree to the decks but i think ur way of solving it is not going to be helpful,but that isn't the topic at all the topic is u wanting to enable duel achievements on people outside WDA which won't work out for many reasons which have all been stated it's cons weigh out it's pros,we don't need this to promote the academy there are other better ways,and i am pretty sure that it will be abused to the fullest by some members like how it is now(the other thing u object on),you clearly haven't thought this out,and you're trying to enforce this on other people and you are ignoring every single thing we state and keep going on about solutions that will cause problems and confusion and might lead to some complicated issues,and your trying to enforce 2 opposite things,one saying that it shouldn't be only against members,which would make the achievements as stated in about every single other post far easier,and the other thing is to enforce open matches for achievements to not be with fun decks or both sides using achievement decks,which is meant to make getting achievements harder,so as i said b4 while u ignored me,ur going against urself in this

and you say i'm immature?no i just thought it out,look i haven't been doing much achievements really but i got to rank 2 in a month or so,and karin got to 3 in a couple of days,imagine if your dn rule were to pass,it would only lead to chaos

tbh these posts are starting to be the same over and over and over digi actually saw this and told us to just let it get buried,so there,happy?

btw happy now RD?


Last edited by darkdiviner597 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:04 pm

First of all, I'll keep this short.
@ Darkdiviner, please try to use interpunction, I have to puzzle right now to understand what you mean.
Please don't decide for me what my intentions are, I explained them, if you choose they are not what you want them to be, your post is unfortunately not worth commenting on.

@ RagingDarkness, I first of all want to say that I completely understand what you say.
- I am not fighting for chaos, I'm fighting for equality.
- Furthermore, as I've stated before, I like the option of the rules actually being enforced more than the rule to be modified. The first post doesn't state this, but I decided to put it in the second post since it seems a viable option that promotes equality as well.
- I understand you want activity, that's what I promote in my posts as well. I do not think actually enforcing rules would change activity, so I do not think it is relevant in this context you stated.
- Of course, some are better duelists than others, but judging by the huge amounts of AP that people have, getting them is too easy.

I am not trying to use your words in order shoot you down. I'm trying to make the academy a better place, and I hate that it's viewed as if I'm trying to shoot you down.

Lastly, I've said everything I've wanted to say about this subject. There's clearly a difference in opinion here. I won't try to attempt to convince you of my view on things, since it wouldn't work. Do whatever the staff thinks what is right to do with the rules and I'll have peace with it. I hope that at least someone understands the point I'm trying to make, so all this posting hasn't been for nothing.

I'd appreciate it if the staff posted a last comment here on what will happen with the rule and why, and then put a lock on this.



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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:59 pm

Justice will be the answer to the new rules, if there are coming new rules




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PostSubject: Re: Achievement rule   Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:43 am

Sorry for not responding to this, it was posted while I was away and I found the chance to reply now since I believe the things stated here should be answered. I will probably manage to anger all sides here with my response.

First let's take the Open Match argument, because it is a matter I wanted to open since April.

As you can see Duel Achievements are separated in 3 categories, ordered by difficulty level: Routine, Challenge and Impossible. Let's also state that achievements are not meant to be easy, save from Routine.
Most achievements, other than those where deckbuilding abilities can manage alone, are meant to be earned through trial and error. You'll play some, you'll lose some, you'll finally get it right, perhaps with luck, perhaps without. It goes like this:
Routine - High chance, little trial and error, very few matches
Challenge - less than average chance, moderate trial and error, a decent amount of matches
Impossible - Very low (Impossible you might say) chance, a lot of trial and error, a high number of matches

Can an achievement deck win against a Tier 0 deck? Very low chance, good thing there are no Tier 0 decks this format.
Can an achievement deck win against a Tier 1 deck? Certainly. A deck might be more efficient than another, but proper metacalls and a bit of luck can go a long way. I have at least 1 Challenge and at least 1 Impossible achievement myself done against top tier decks. Yes, for some it may be hard, and that's why you try multiple times.
Most importantly, some achievements clearly mention an "Open match". That is because they are otherwise not hard enough to justify the reward, therefore you are expected to use them against decent decks. Sure you might get lucky and that one new player might bring a bad deck to an Open match, but that is only luck, you are not supposed to fix that. You are not supposed to share deck information before a match and most importantly if you restrict the usage of decks then you are creating a custom banlist and therefore no longer play in the Open tier. You are not supposed to ask for your opponent to use an achievement deck as well, the achievements are made under the assumption you'll bring a knife to a gunfight and you are fixing for a pillow-fight instead.

The above applies to all achievements specifically mentioning "Open match". They mention it for a reason, please understand that.

Of course we were aware this was happening, I could see people ask for "achievement matches" since day 1 on chat but didn't act against it since it was much better at the time for achievements to pick up, even if that meant letting some rule bending go, at least until the day it was safe to set proper rules. Exactly because it was allowed it is now legal, you don't need reasoning or a written law for it, simply take my word. It was a necessity, it was for the best and therefore it happened. However I am certainly not happy with it and I kept in mind I needed to fix that gap one of these days. Additionally I remember asking the members to respect those rules on the forum, hoping that I won't have to create additional rules to uphold the existing rules, neither would I have to pull an authority card and would hopefully leave it all to fair play.

In the end however this is not the matter of this topic neither will I solve this right here, so let's move along.

We are not being too strict or too untrusting about the honesty of our members in regards to achievements. As proof, we have let some serious rule bending that has been mentioned just go. There have been other achievements which have not been fully completed that we let go as well (the "older" section mods might remember silver's epic screw-up with the 2 Leviathan Dragons in Quad Stop). We do not ask full proof from our members, in fact all visual proof we receive can easily be faked, and that's without even altering the image itself. Still we accept it. We do not ask for extra witnesses or for a section mod or a staff member to watch the match. We only ask that the match is open for viewing to whoever (again, a rule the breaking of which we have forgiven exactly because we show some trust) and the simple confirmation of the achievement next to the match confirmation for the opponent. Considering all I've seen: Do we trust our members enough?
Yeah, we trust them too much in fact, and I wouldn't change it, with the exception of the "Open match" rule where we seem to just not have a proper understanding is all. And, although trust is not the main reason for this rule, the truth is those rules are based on our trust for the members so much that I simply cannot take another step back in them, as I'd be overdoing it (might as well ask them a yes or not question for the achievement in the end), considering that it would not be too hard for a new member in his very early teens to consider that it's just fine to say a white lie for a forum thing. I do show trust in them but because I do also try to understand them I understand that not everyone is completely sincere, and that is okay.

The Achievement System, however, is a WDA system. This may seem a bit cold, but it is not meant to show who has the most badges and medals among us in general. It is a WDA functional system and a game between us. I can go to my locals, get first place 3 times in a row, get the prizes, brag, feel good about it. That however has nothing to do with WDA nor should it, just like our DLK team victory doesn't have anything to do with it, just like those goals I scored in that soccer game the other day do not. Even if we do use our WDA "persona" to show off some things unrelated to it, in chat, off topic forum posts etc. there is still no reason WDA should reward us for it, it is simply neither WDA's place nor business.

The Achievement System also stands there for a reason. It is of course (A) a fun event for some (boring perhaps for others) WDA members, and (B) as many other things here, a means to boost activity. When all Duel Achievements are done in official duels and when many Forum Achievements involve official duels, that means, as you can guess, more official duels. Which is something we do want to have, inner dueling is a good way to boost activity and circle some within WDA (And not just because we just have to have more members, but because it is better to play against people you know than randoms for most people. If more people play in WDA then there are more chances for that). On the other hand, if we removed the WDA official duel pre-requisite then people would simply be encouraged to stay out on DN, drop by here to drop their bag of achievements, go back out, which is simply an incentive I'd rather I didn't give, at least because there is no reason to give it (Sorry, the "people who see us do random stuff will join us" argument I find too wishful to discuss).

To sum up, it's a WDA event, there is no reason why it should not be about WDA and plenty of reasons why it should, at least from our point of view. Anyone is free to attemp those achievements on DN, get that proof, perhaps we could bring back rooms so people could post all those cool achievements somewhere and brag about them, but WDA will not reward Achievement Points for them neither will they count towards Achievement Paths or other WDA related functions that require them.

And one last point to bring up. That is to everyone (although not many will reach that low on the post). I suggest that people do not argue to Section Mods about rules, do not complain to Section Mods about rules, do not ask Section Mods to alter rules, or anything like that. That is because Section Mods do not carry legislative authority (decision-making if you will), at least no more than any other member does. Even if they do disagree with a rule it is not within their power to change it or act against it (of course they can always choose to act against it, but they are not allowed to). That authority lies with the WDA Staff (that is everyone with admin powers by the current system) or all the active members of WDA itself as a single body. So in the end, if you demand action from a section mod on such a matter, even if said section mod agrees with you, you will simply be wasting both yours and their time, while perhaps disturbing that section mod. You may ask them to act by the rules, but not change them. If you have an issue with the existing rules, you should talk with a Staff member or use the Site Suggestion section (as this topic was). I should have answered much sooner, I apologize but I could not at the time.


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