Boulder Canyon's Classroom :D

Okay guys here's the thing. I've been getting lots of ruling questions in Dueling Network lately and I decided I was going to post them here to let you guys discuss about them.

1) -solved by mido9- Player B special summons Infernity Archfiend, Player A activates Solemn Warning and negates the summon. After this, Player B attempts to use Monster Reborn, targeting Infernity Archfiend in his own grave, but Player A says he cannot Reborn that monster cause it's summon was previously negated (summon wasn't succesful).

2) -solved by AsianGuy1137- Player A attacks his opponent directly. Player B activates Mystical Space Typhoon in responce to the attack, targeting a face down card controlled by his opponent. This face-down card happened to be another Mystical Space Typhoon, so Player A chained it as well, targeting another face down card controlled by Player B. After this Player B chains this face down card, wich happened to be Dimensional Prison, to the second Typhoon. Player B says that Dimensional Prison will resolve, banishing the attacking monster.

3) -solved by ☆_Nemlim_☆- Player A declares an attack with Number 39: Utopia. Player B activates Dimensional Prison in responce. Player A activates Utopia's effect, cancelling out his own attack, avoiding Dimensional Prison.

4) -solved by ☆_Nemlim_☆- Player B summons Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier and uses it's effect, targeting Player A's face up Scrap Beast. Player A chains Scrap Storm to Trishula's effect and sends Scrap Chimera to the grave, draws one card, and destroys Scrap Beast, so that Trishula misses it's target later. He tries to add Scrap Chimera to hand thanks to beast's effect, and then he summons Meklord Emperor Granel after Scrap Beast was destroyed by a card effect.

5) Your opponent controls a face-up Stardust Dragon, a face-up Skill Drain and a face-down Bottomless Trap Hole. Your field consists of a single Masked Dragon, with Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon and Smashing Ground in your hand, and Prime Material Dragon + Blue-Eyes White Dragon in your Graveyard. You summon Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon. ¿What's the most probable thing to happen?
¿What if you decide to activate Smashing Ground before summoning your dragon?

6) You have Chaos Sorcerer in hand with 1 LIGHT and 1 DARK monster in grave, and a face up Plaguespreader Zombie. Your opponent controls a face-up T.G. Hyper Librarian and Formula Synchron. You summon Chaos Sorcerer and use turn player's priority to use it's effect, targeting Librarian. The opponent chains Formula's effect and summons Black Rose Dragon, aiming to nuke the field. Correct?

So there you go. What do you have to say about these cases. Mistakes coming from any player? Why? Explain everything you can, chains with their respective links, talk about game mechanics, rulings, spell speeds, terminology errors, etc.

Have fun :D

PS: Stay away rule geeks (yeah, I'm talking to you). If you're a rule geek , you can only help the ones that are still unsure of the answer, but you cannot answer the questions

PS2: this is not restricted to BC members, anyone can participate.

Rule Geeks list:

1) Al-Bhed
2) Syrus Truesdale

I thought Infernity Archfiend's special summon can't be negated by Solemn Warning...

Every summon aside from summons that say (this card's summon cannot be negated) or anything that happens during the damage step, can be negated by Solemn Warning

Both of you are missing the real question...

The Joker wrote:

Every summon aside from summons that say (this card's summon cannot be negated) or anything that happens during the damage step, can be negated by Solemn Warning

Ok, for the 238471th time, in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG you can NEVER negate a summon which happens at the resolution of a card effect.

And just in case someone didn't catch this to avoid some future issues

NEVER

Also, counter traps have no issue in activating during the damage step.

For this and for the answer to this question I'd suggest the summon rules article that everyone seems to mess up lately.

psychoturtle wrote:

Both of you are missing the real question...

lily falls under the rule geek category so he just pointed out a terminology error.

LilyRainEve(TeWe) wrote:

I thought Infernity Archfiend's special summon can't be negated by Solemn Warning...

psychoturtle wrote:

Both of you are missing the real question...

Actually he's not missing the real question. There are clearly some mistakes in the play and I want you to tell me what they are. I'm writting EXACTLY what the guys in DN told me that happened, so it's up to you if you believe the story or not. Can Infernity Archfiend be special summoned? Yes it can, with cards like Stigyan Street Patroll, etc, but then, can you negate that summon with Solemn Warning?.

I have no idea if this is right or not, but I'm just gonna go on a limb and say...

You can negate pretty much any card which either hits the field by inherent special summon or has an effect that special summons with solemn warning. In other words, even Gorz can be negated by Solemn Warning. The guy who said you can't in case 1 is either stupid or a noob (not much of a difference these days).

In the second case, D Prison is a response to the attack declaration so it resolves normally. Nothing besides that. Amirite with my completely hypothetical speculations based on absolutely no prior experience with rulings at all? :D

Asian MST was activated in response the attack by the player receiving the attack, u can't chain cards like D-Prison and Mirror Force to MST....

keep discusing :D this is getting interesting. both AsianGuy and Frost are missing something.

I'm still waiting for Infernal's answer.

Infernal cant answer, he's a rule geek.

Umm rj I didn't give a full answer cuz u said we cannot answer the questions in ur first post...

you prooved yourself not being a rule geek after giving that answer, so you may proceed and post the full answer :P xD

rjuto, many seem to consider themselves rule geeks, it would be better to post a list next time.

Al-Bhed wrote:

rjuto, many seem to consider themselves rule geeks, it would be better to post a list next time.

U know what? I WILL.

Rule Geek List updated (yeah, seriously).

Answer to 1) he can because the negated rule applies to semi nomis,synchros,exceeds and fusions only,it doesnt apply to non-nomis.

2.Does anyone ever chaining BTH to Chaos Sorcerer's effect?

Pffft, that would be like BTH'ing a monarch, and we all know that's impossible

LegendaryFrost wrote:

Asian MST was activated in response the attack by the player receiving the attack, u can't chain cards like D-Prison and Mirror Force to MST....

O Rly? I believe this thread or maybe this thread would like to disagree. Basically, when an attack is declared, it is an event which has no chain speed and therefore cannot be countered by a chain, per se. However, you can respond to the event by using a card that can respond to the attack like say D-Prison, Mirror Force, w/e. Also keep in mind, responses can be made so long as the attack declaration response window hasn't closed yet which DOESN'T close until the attack declaration response chain ends.

Both questions have been answered correctly:

mido9 wrote:

Answer to 1) he can because the negated rule applies to semi nomis,synchros,exceeds and fusions only,it doesnt apply to non-nomis.

This is correct. About Archfiend's summon negation, that CAN'T happen. What you CAN negate is the effect of the card that attempts to special summon him.

AsianGuy1137 wrote:

2) Basically, when an attack is declared, it is an event which has no chain speed and therefore cannot be countered by a chain, per se. However, you can respond to the event by using a card that can respond to the attack like say D-Prison, Mirror Force, w/e. Also keep in mind, responses can be made so long as the attack declaration response window hasn't closed yet which DOESN'T close until the attack declaration response chain ends.

Correct as well.

Well, I guess I should give an actual explanation

When any event occurs, summon of a monster, declaration of an attack, switch of a position, setting of a card, start of a phase, destruction by battle, resolution of a chain along with whatever event happened last (monsters going to the graveyard, or a monster beint summoned or a card being discarded to the graveyard etc.)
if a chain starts immidiatelly after that (you could say priority dictates what is immidiatelly after and what is not, after the event turn player gets priority, then he can pass it to the opponent, up to here it is considered to be immidiatelly after. Afterwards if the opponent passes as well it isn't.)
then that chain is responding to that event. If the last thing to have happened was drawing a card Appropriate can be activated, if the last thing to have happened is a monster summon torrential tribute can be activated, if it was an attack declaration dimensional prison can be activated and so on. More than one things may have been the last thing to have happened btw, for example the last thing of a chain resolution can be: Discarding a Dark Wold monster from your hand. But also that means you discarded a monster from your hand. But also that means a player discarded a card from his hand. But that also means a monster was sent to the graveyard. But that also means a chain finished resolving. That could also mean a spell card finished resolving. The chain to follow responds to all of those things at the same time as they are all the last thing to have happened and multiple cards that respond to different things among those can be activated in the same chain.

Making a complete generalization to things (that could very easily be proved wrong but we will use it here for learning purposes, after all my geek level is not high enough) there are 2 kinds of cards which respond to something. Those that have to respond directly in the chain to what they, well, respond to, and those that don't have to and can be used at any point in a chain that responds to said event.

Among those that have to respond directly are direct negators and summon negators (cant remember anymore right now, by direct negators I mean cards which negate specific effects/activations if you wish to correct me). Divine Wrath is one of those cards for example. It will negate what is immidiatelly before it in the chain. If it isn't a monster effect that is immidiatelly before it in the chain it can't be activated. Effect veiler is NOT one of those as it does not negate a specific effect, it will negate the effects of a monster of the turn, it doesnt have to be when they are activated, so it can be dropped 3 chain links after the monster effect was put on the chain. So whatever negates a specific effect/activation falls in this category as a direct negator (dont look up the term, I am just using it now to explain, its like kimo's jackals) but not those cards which dont negate something specific like skill drain etc.
Black Horn of Heaven is another one of those cards, it must be used as chain link 1 in response to the summon, otherwise it will not be able to be used. That is the reason why you cannot go warning>seven tools>warning to an inherent summon, seven tools summons nothing so solemn warning cannot be chained to it. Cards which negate summons (NEGATE, NOT RESPOND) must be used directly.
The same would apply outside of counter traps, stardust dragon for example must be chained directly to the effect he has to negate.

The above though is not true when you are responding to something. If a chain is built in response to a summon so long as there is no spell speed 3 card or an unchainable card like Super Polymerization involved I can put a Torrential Tribute, which is a card which responds to a summon, on chain link 12 if I please (dont ask how, we were holding 3 crows each). If a chain resolves and the last thing to happen was the opponent drawing a card I can put Droll & Lock Bird on chain link 7 if I so please, even if the effect of Numinous Healer which has nothing to do with adding a card to hand, was at chain link 6. Cards which negate attacks (even Negate Attack) also fall under this category and do not have to be on chain link 1 in response to the attack, they can be put anywhere on the chain so long as it responds to the attack. (if I forgot here cards which has to be used directly in response to the event notify me)

There are also cards that dont care about what happened last and can wait a bit to respond (aka mandatory/"if..., you can" trigger/trigger-like effects) but that's a story for another time...

As a side note cards which negate activations kick what they negate out of the chain at resolution. So for example if I activate Upstart Goblin and the opponent chains Dark Bribe the last thing to have happened is me drawing a card, upstart goblin never resolves, even without effect, so Appropriate can be activated in response to the resolution of the chain. The same is not true for cards which do not negate activations. If I activate monster reborn and the opponent chains royal oppression the last thing to have happened is monster reborn resolving without effect, not me destroying a spell, an effect will always resolve, even without effect, unless something negates its activation.

So now we can stop doing weird speculations and start using facts. Btw, I am sure I have messed up some details/exceptions in the above so if a fellow rule geek can correct me it would help. I probably wont be able to respond for a few days though so make sure you double check that you are correct when you do so.


waiting on rjuto's wall'o'text jab now

Now u guys know who I was reffering to when I said "Rule Geek" xD!

Thanks Al lol.

Post updated with more situations.

3.Moon Barrier is Utopia's Trigger-Effect, being spell-speed 1, it can't be chained to Dimensional Prison.
4. eww...

3) The Utopia is removed cuz it's trigger effect cannot be activated once Prison has been used, since it must be used in direct response to an attack.

4) I might not have this one but lemme have a go anyway. Trishula doesn't target, therefore whenever the ol' Scrap Beast-Scrapstorm conbo finishes and Meklord is on the field, Trish will be able to remove a card from each the field, hand and grave.


SEVERE EDIT: Meklord won't hit the field cuz Meklord can't be summoned unless directly after the destruction of a monster.

Meklord's effect can't be activated in the middle of resolving chainlink.which is before trish banishing the card from those area, after scrapstorm destroying scrap.

Meklord's effect is a trigger effect that does get activated, but it doesn't resolve until the chain preceding its activation fully resolves. Saying it doesn't activate is like saying Absolute Zero doesn't get its nuke effect because it was removed from the field as a fusion material or something.