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 Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)

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DigiDigi
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PostSubject: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:24 pm

So I've had quite a few complaints about the vulgarity in chat. For those who don't know what vulgarity is, vulgarity is simply the lack of sophistication of someone/something such as pervertedness, unneeded cussing, bad jokes, and I will personally throw in emoness because I am personally tired of it.

If you have a point to make that the staff should regulate your freedom of speech, then please make your points here (or if the points have been made, then quote the person(s) you agree with and simply say "I agree"--or even try to elaborate if possible.) Same goes for those who disagree.

I will only start by saying this: no more emoness on the chat. If you have anger issues, or are angry, do not take it out on those on the chat or darken the mood of the chat. Its awkward to approach depressing peopole and quite frankly I'm tired of dealing with it on the chat. If you have issues, take it somewhere else other than the chat. PM me like I said before if you really need that much help. There are others here who are willing to counsel you and help you out like Mau5, JJ, etc. Just please...enough of this emo shenanigans. I'm done with dealing with it on the chat.

EDIT: Here are the rules we currently have revolving around the chat:

http://www.worldduelingacademy.com/t1-forum-rules
http://www.worldduelingacademy.com/t5499-chat-commandments-revised
http://www.worldduelingacademy.com/t1316-sarcasm-the-ins-the-ou-what-the-does-sarcasm-mean
http://www.worldduelingacademy.com/t4256-please-guys-take-a-joke?highlight=joke


Je t'aime comme un frère, Kimo. Je ne partirai jamais ton côté.

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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:26 pm

Praise the Lord,you've come to your senses. :P


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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:29 pm

I agree. Personal life issues are best left for private messages. It's alright to feel emotions, but not in a way that makes everyone around you uncomfortable. I'm all for this.


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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:35 pm

It is nice not to have a filter here and to have the freedom of being able to curse without it being censored. With allowing this though ( I believe cursing is allowed as it is done often enough as are the jokes listed)you will of course have users who 1) take it too far and 2) users who are offended by it. I honestly do contribute to the vulgarity, but I haven't seen nearly as many negative reactions as I have positive (maybe like 2 times people said they were upset?). I am not trying to insult the person/ people who have been complaining to you but maybe they should just deal with it? I'm sure if it's REALLY bad or offensive, or crosses the line (staff should be able to tell what the line is very easily) then just punish those who DO go that far, or as a user report it. I find cursing to be casual along with these 'offensive' jokes. Honestly I don't see anything wrong with it, it's all in good fun, but if I am offending people I would like to know.

Maybe we should try to cut down on it a bit and those who are offended can deal with it(either by reporting it or just not getting upset? It's the internet, who cares what some stranger says) and there would be a lot less problems.

As for the 'emoness' I myself have witnessed it and it is a downer. I know it's not good to kick those while they are down, but please, PM someone. You being a Debbie Downer in the chat does no one any good and personally annoys me, but hey, I can just ignore it.


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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:36 pm

i is neutral, i could care less about bad words being said, the majority of people here are adults and mature (more or less). If enough people want a filter then we should have one just so that no one will be complaining. But if we do have a filter, some people might try to avoid it anyways, rendering it useless. There ARE younger people here though and so we have to respect how they feel as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:38 pm

Let me make this loud and clear: we will never, ever put up filters. We will only use our censorship for practical jokes only (which is very rare these days).


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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:46 pm

DigiDigi wrote:
Let me make this loud and clear: we will never, ever put up filters. We will only use our censorship for practical jokes only (which is very rare these days).
I hope I didn't imply that I thought you should/would/were going to. I think it's a good thing that you won't. This is a smaller community with a more mature auidence than let's say DNF(which is what I am used to) and I feel we can handle these curses. These complaints however make me worry that maybe I personally have crossed the line and offended someone. Then again they also make me worry if the other person is just overreacting.
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:46 pm

I'm kind but a jerk at times but the reason I won't say certain things or jokes is because there is no real need to say it and I don't need someone bitching at me because their pissed off. SOME people just get angry way too fast but I'll agree somethings don't have to be said (Sexist jokes for an example).

So basically: Stop getting pissed off over the internet! You gain nothing from it!

P.S. Please try to think before you say something that could piss someone off.


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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:55 pm

I think that we can all agree on the whole "overreacting part" and exactly what LK just said about "if you don't have something good to say, don't say it at all" motto. Its a good moral to live by and there is a fine line between joking around and straight up insulting someone. I think what the issue is is that some people can't tell the difference between our sarcasm/banter/dark humor/practical jokes/inside jokes from insults because of being new and/or isolated. Most of the time we are joking around and most of the time certain people will overreact.

Fish wrote:

Every day I log in somebody has said something that will piss somebody else off.

Everybody needs to take a step back and calm down.

1.) If somebody makes a joke, take it as a joke. I don't want to see chatlogs of people clearly just bumming around and being taken stone-cold seriously by another member for the sake of drama.

There is banter and there is harassment.

Banter:

xD Cyberdark, you're clearly emo! Lmao!

Harassment:

Al, I know your brother just died, but I don't care and I hate you and I'm glad he died, he was an asshole and he deserved to be caught in that car crash.

(Al's brother didn't die in a car crash)

If there's one thing I hate it's when people decide to be offended when they're not offended - "Hey, that's an insult, that should offend me! RAAAGE!"

2.) If you have a problem, for the love of god don't rage and hate on that person. That's the worst thing you can do and if you do this you're as much to blame for any ensuing drama as anybody else, and the admin that has the unlucky job of sorting out the stupidity will be taking that into account.

If somebody has been harassing you and insulting you, just ignore it and report it. Take a screenshot, take a chatlog, and send them to an admin (Al, Fish, LF, Rjuto or Digi). The admin team will sort out whatever needs sorting out.

Alot of the people on this site have dark humour and we pass our time with banter and sarcasm. Don't take everything you read stone cold seriously. If you really do feel offended, don't go on a rage, calmly take evidence such as a screenshot and a copy-paste, and report it to an admin.

I also agree that maybe we should be a bit more sophisticated more often (i.e. going by "doing these kinds of things every now and then rather than all of the time.)





Je t'aime comme un frère, Kimo. Je ne partirai jamais ton côté.

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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:05 pm

OK to be real, I considered most of the ppl in chat as children because they act as such(no I won't give examples because frankly I can't remember most of these peoples names and won't make an effort to). In treating you as such I tend to joke around and in the end just leave if I see "drama" starting, but if it's become this much of a problem for Digi to become annoyed, I'll be stricter.

You can do w.e. in chat but if you wanna go emo/self-pity/Ifeelbadandthereforeeveryoneelseshouldfeelbadtoo I'll take care of it as I see fit.
The chat is a place for people to talk together and enjoy each others "company". Sometimes it may turn into a therapy session but the whole rage over w.e. or complaining excessively over trivial things has gotta go.




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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:47 pm

Most of the people (if not all) complaining about such vulgarity on the chat, have been involved in some form of vulgarity on the chat. If you ever feel the need to complain about something that someone else has done on the chat then stop to consider if it's something that you do as well. Nothing is worse than being a hypocrite about such things. More often than not, when we get complaints here, the person complaining was involved in the wrong doing just as much as the person they're complaining about. Sometimes we even get two people complaining about each other when they were both equally at fault.

We try not to moderate here that much, because we don't feel we should have to. WDA is a small community. Some people are dicks and we accept that. *cough* J.J. *cough* The staff will talk to someone if they get out of hand but usually we only do so if absolutely necessary. If you ever do feel abused, you are encouraged to pm a member of staff, just understand that if you're equally at fault in the matter that we will take actions against you as well if we feel that such actions need to be taken.

cheymcfly wrote:
It is nice not to have a filter here and to have the freedom of being able to curse without it being censored. With allowing this though ( I believe cursing is allowed as it is done often enough as are the jokes listed)you will of course have users who 1) take it too far and 2) users who are offended by it. I honestly do contribute to the vulgarity, but I haven't seen nearly as many negative reactions as I have positive (maybe like 2 times people said they were upset?). I am not trying to insult the person/ people who have been complaining to you but maybe they should just deal with it? I'm sure if it's REALLY bad or offensive, or crosses the line (staff should be able to tell what the line is very easily) then just punish those who DO go that far, or as a user report it. I find cursing to be casual along with these 'offensive' jokes. Honestly I don't see anything wrong with it, it's all in good fun, but if I am offending people I would like to know.

Maybe we should try to cut down on it a bit and those who are offended can deal with it(either by reporting it or just not getting upset? It's the internet, who cares what some stranger says) and there would be a lot less problems.

As for the 'emoness' I myself have witnessed it and it is a downer. I know it's not good to kick those while they are down, but please, PM someone. You being a Debbie Downer in the chat does no one any good and personally annoys me, but hey, I can just ignore it.

Personally, I find this post to be very hypocritical of how you typically act. You seem to be holding others to standards that you, yourself, don't want to be held. If you believe something you say/ a conversation your having might upset or offend others then take it out of WDA and have the conversation on your own personal messenger. I've seen very mature conduct on the chat come from you. I've never spoken against it because much of WDA gets involved in such conversations. Even so, you should cease such activities when you know you might be upsetting others.
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:26 pm

well this is weird to see, i honestly didn't expect this especially not from digi
ok so i get how some people can get annoyed by certain things, i know many things that are probably not meant to actually start an argument or a fight do, it's mostly concerning newer people here though, i don't find most of the sarcasm and actual jokes seeing negative attitude here and i think this is mainly a complaint about the emoness and perverted things more than anything, those have been happening a lot lately and i get how some people can be annoyed by it.
but here's the thing i see digi talking about how people being depressed brings down the chat even though i know myself that she handled a lot of people's problem on the same chat, look i know you don't like coming and seeing someone complaining about his life and w.e and you don't know or just don't want to join in because of it, but i don't think we should go ahead and shun anyone who might have something to talk about, i doubt anyone would actually pm digi unless they talked at least a bit in the chat first.
and you say being emo is bad and brings down the chat, it's mainly just a conversation between usually 2 people, it isn't really that much different than for example me and supa talking excessivly about LoL which would infact bring down the chat and make people not want to talk as well.
the chat isn't a place to enjoy yourself with others, it's a place to communicate with others, usually you want to have fun but its purpose is communicating, and talking about someone and their problems is still communicating just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong.

as for the perverted things which i assume you mean to include in all of this, i've seen it much more lately, and i've been part of it more than once, but honestly i never saw anyone even try and stop it. especially you digi
i think i've seen you annoyed by it once or twice but you haven't gone to any effort to actually stop it and i've seen you be part of things like this as part of a joke or w.e.

since i went through those i'll just go on, cussing isn't anything anyone is honestly annoyed by nor is it a real problem and i don't think anyone here actually thinks it is, we're mature enough to handle it

bad jokes...uh.. you see here it's honestly not my fault when i make a joke or say something sarcastic and someone takes it the wrong way, i barley see any negative reaction from them, and as i said it's just new members usually so yea...

i think that covers what you are complaining about i guess, i don't see too much honest points in this topic, people get annoyed by other people but i don't see that as a reason to restrict what we can say unless it gets to harassment where we adress the member himself, i think we can manage ourselves and our jokes and our emoness, it's okay if there's a conversation you don't like or can't join we are people from different plces and different ages and different interests it's normal for some to talk about things others might not want to, and it's also normal to not like someone or what they say/do we're just people in a community these things happen, i know you don't want the chat to become something you can't join or something that brings you down but it's gonna happen either way, i don't think complaining about simple things is worth it at all, it's only worth dealing with personally at an excessive rate by a certain member or 2 usually, trying to restrict what people talk about won't do you any help neither will complaining about what they say
as i said, you see someone being a problem go to that single person instead to going to the community in general
that's what i think at least
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:16 pm

DigiDigi wrote:
I will only start by saying this: no more emoness on the chat. If you have anger issues, or are angry, do not take it out on those on the chat or darken the mood of the chat. Its awkward to approach depressing peopole and quite frankly I'm tired of dealing with it on the chat. If you have issues, take it somewhere else other than the chat. PM me like I said before if you really need that much help. There are others here who are willing to counsel you and help you out like Mau5, JJ, etc. Just please...enough of this emo shenanigans. I'm done with dealing with it on the chat.
But that's half of what WDA is all about. Might we be relinquishing our identity, dare I ask.

This seems to be an open discussion with no promise to do much so let's consider something. Vulgarity, wasn't much of an issue before, at least it was not brought up. So for it to be brought to the staff's attention, by multiple people, it either means that several people who are easy to offend arrived, people who use extra vulgarity arrived or both. If not much action is going to be taken about it (which should be the correct way to proceed anyways), then it should also be appropriate to just reason with the source of it.

As an action to be taken, I'm sure that if something does go wrong on the chat, our 7,932,135,441,523,225 section mods and 4,925,916,526,110,642 staff members, combined for 12,852,051,967,633,867 positioned members of WDA, will notice it. If section mods are told to report such stuff when they notice it, it should be fine.

Otherwise, if the point of this is just to tell people vulgarity is bad, yeah, kids, vulgarity is bad, don't vulgarity. At least not tastelessly, because when you come here past midnight europe time, you should expect it.

As for emoness, it's not bad. It's adolescent, it's stupid, it's awkward and it's annoying. There are things you should leave at home, but your dignity is not one of them. Even if it makes you feel special now, trust me, you don't want people to pity you.


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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:54 am

DigiDigi wrote:
So I've had quite a few complaints about the vulgarity in chat. For those who don't know what vulgarity is, vulgarity is simply the lack of sophistication of someone/something such as pervertedness, unneeded cussing, bad jokes, and I will personally throw in emoness because I am personally tired of it.


no, let's not be shit like DNF. There's a diff between having a sense of humor and being annoying. Jokes are fine. As for emoness, if someone has legit problems, they should be allowed to express them. Optimism is completely dumb and constantly being on cloud nine is far more annoying imo. I'd count repeated same thing, as spam. I'm aware I most the time come off as an emo bastard and yes, I do have problems, I try and keep them off the internet as much as possible but sometimes I can't help it.





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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:44 am

Minako wrote:
Most of the people (if not all) complaining about such vulgarity on the chat, have been involved in some form of vulgarity on the chat. If you ever feel the need to complain about something that someone else has done on the chat then stop to consider if it's something that you do as well. Nothing is worse than being a hypocrite about such things. More often than not, when we get complaints here, the person complaining was involved in the wrong doing just as much as the person they're complaining about. Sometimes we even get two people complaining about each other when they were both equally at fault.

We try not to moderate here that much, because we don't feel we should have to. WDA is a small community. Some people are dicks and we accept that. *cough* J.J. *cough* The staff will talk to someone if they get out of hand but usually we only do so if absolutely necessary. If you ever do feel abused, you are encouraged to pm a member of staff, just understand that if you're equally at fault in the matter that we will take actions against you as well if we feel that such actions need to be taken.

cheymcfly wrote:
It is nice not to have a filter here and to have the freedom of being able to curse without it being censored. With allowing this though ( I believe cursing is allowed as it is done often enough as are the jokes listed)you will of course have users who 1) take it too far and 2) users who are offended by it. I honestly do contribute to the vulgarity, but I haven't seen nearly as many negative reactions as I have positive (maybe like 2 times people said they were upset?). I am not trying to insult the person/ people who have been complaining to you but maybe they should just deal with it? I'm sure if it's REALLY bad or offensive, or crosses the line (staff should be able to tell what the line is very easily) then just punish those who DO go that far, or as a user report it. I find cursing to be casual along with these 'offensive' jokes. Honestly I don't see anything wrong with it, it's all in good fun, but if I am offending people I would like to know.

Maybe we should try to cut down on it a bit and those who are offended can deal with it(either by reporting it or just not getting upset? It's the internet, who cares what some stranger says) and there would be a lot less problems.

As for the 'emoness' I myself have witnessed it and it is a downer. I know it's not good to kick those while they are down, but please, PM someone. You being a Debbie Downer in the chat does no one any good and personally annoys me, but hey, I can just ignore it.

Personally, I find this post to be very hypocritical of how you typically act. You seem to be holding others to standards that you, yourself, don't want to be held. If you believe something you say/ a conversation your having might upset or offend others then take it out of WDA and have the conversation on your own personal messenger. I've seen very mature conduct on the chat come from you. I've never spoken against it because much of WDA gets involved in such conversations. Even so, you should cease such activities when you know you might be upsetting others.
What do you mean hypocritical of how I typically act? I said I want to KNOW if I am offending someone.I haven't had anyone say that I personally was going too far/ upsetting someone, I have witnessed it with someone else though(and the user who was offended was really overreacting). I want to be held to the same standards as everyone else. We all are having good fun and as I said, only once I saw someone get really upset and it wasn't even due to what I said.
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:41 am

I was quoted? Awesome.

I'ma be honest, I often am a dick to people because I'm bored, but that's because of the whole English sense of "banter", not sure if that occurs with other nationalities.
However, we in the church of Not Giving a Shit, tend not to react with emotion to this kind of thing, and we in the church of Not Giving a Shit hold the ideal that ridicule will win over seriousness in a debate, as long as you play it well.

As far as the Mina-Chey debate of 2013 goes, personally I've not seen anything TOO bad coming out of Chey's mouth except maybe once, but even then that's just the feeling of having that memory of Chey instead of remembering specific things Chey has said or done. But I'm not on all the time so I don't know. But as I said before I tend to like banter and taking the piss out of people for fun, and I don't think anybody has ever said to me,

"Fish, seriously now, this is getting a bit upsetting/annoying/pathetic, enough is enough", to which I would reply, "Okay, sorry buddy, I don't really mean these things."
In fact I've never really had anybody respond with anger or hatred either. (Except for Ali, when he was emo, but he's a pretty coo' guy now.)

But I would agree that if you really feel angry about something, take a chatlog and stuff and report it and the admin will sort it out. I kind of said that in my quote because that's where I am.

However, I would like to make one suggestion to people who are making complaints about this kind of stuff.
If you're complaining about an insult or something, take your screenshot or chatlog and save it, and sleep over it. The next morning, when the fog has cleared, you can usually determine if they meant it meanly or not, and you can usually confront them calmly about it.

As it happens, if any of the members themselves are angering you (like me or J.J.), you can easily go to that specific person first, and tell them. As far as I know, judging from the admin team at least, as I know them, if they received a serious request to stop, they'd take it seriously. The same can be said for the majority of the members I know (though perhaps not J.J., as Mina said, he's an asshole).

Remember. Drama is bad. Except for me, I take theatre studies, so leave it to me, because I'm a good actor.

Also remember. I hate you all.












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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:08 am

Fish wrote:
I was quoted? Awesome.

I'ma be honest, I often am a dick to people because I'm bored, but that's because of the whole English sense of "banter", not sure if that occurs with other nationalities.
However, we in the church of Not Giving a Shit, tend not to react with emotion to this kind of thing, and we in the church of Not Giving a Shit hold the ideal that ridicule will win over seriousness in a debate, as long as you play it well.

As far as the Mina-Chey debate of 2013 goes, personally I've not seen anything TOO bad coming out of Chey's mouth except maybe once, but even then that's just the feeling of having that memory of Chey instead of remembering specific things Chey has said or done. But I'm not on all the time so I don't know. But as I said before I tend to like banter and taking the piss out of people for fun, and I don't think anybody has ever said to me,

"Fish, seriously now, this is getting a bit upsetting/annoying/pathetic, enough is enough", to which I would reply, "Okay, sorry buddy, I don't really mean these things."
In fact I've never really had anybody respond with anger or hatred either. (Except for Ali, when he was emo, but he's a pretty coo' guy now.)

But I would agree that if you really feel angry about something, take a chatlog and stuff and report it and the admin will sort it out. I kind of said that in my quote because that's where I am.

However, I would like to make one suggestion to people who are making complaints about this kind of stuff.
If you're complaining about an insult or something, take your screenshot or chatlog and save it, and sleep over it. The next morning, when the fog has cleared, you can usually determine if they meant it meanly or not, and you can usually confront them calmly about it.

As it happens, if any of the members themselves are angering you (like me or J.J.), you can easily go to that specific person first, and tell them. As far as I know, judging from the admin team at least, as I know them, if they received a serious request to stop, they'd take it seriously. The same can be said for the majority of the members I know (though perhaps not J.J., as Mina said, he's an asshole).

Remember. Drama is bad. Except for me, I take theatre studies, so leave it to me, because I'm a good actor.

Also remember. I hate you all.



Well said Fish, Well said.




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NotSoGallantGallade
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:15 am

Short answer:

-Vulgarity can definitely be toned down a bit, but I see no issue other than making sure people aren't offending others because they cussed in a post and therefore gave it a tone that someone else misinterprets as offensive, etc.

-Emo-ness has to stop. Seriously, it's something that can get taken into private messaging if it's actually bad, and if it's just random self-loathing or bitching (speaking of cussing =P) then it can be held so as not to disrupt chat. Emo-ness has also been the source of many a conflict on chat, so this I think is pertinent to keeping a bit more order.

-Personally, I think harassment has gone a bit far on chat recently. I'm not going to call anyone out in particular, but there have been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many fights on chat (which is why I requested chat modship, because I cannot stand that stuff), and it's ridiculous to see the chat suddenly clogged up with "LOL ur gay" "No im not" and so on and so forth for an extended period of time, until someone snaps or ragequits chat for a while.

Yes, all of these elements are, in some way, a piece of WDA's chat identity and all, but the sum of these parts has come to a breaking point, so I think now was the right time for it to be called out. Things need to get toned down in all aspects listed above, for the good of all.




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J.J. Knight
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:11 pm

Minako wrote:
WDA is a small community. Some people are dicks and we accept that. *cough* J.J. *cough*

I see how it is.

If you think evil J.J. is bad, well, let's see how you like Good J.J.



IMΔGINE | DREΔM | CREΔTE
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cheymcfly
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:40 pm

J.J. Knight wrote:
Minako wrote:
WDA is a small community. Some people are dicks and we accept that. *cough* J.J. *cough*

I see how it is.

If you think evil J.J. is bad, well, let's see how you like Good J.J.
I'm scared. Please go back to normal. It's creepy
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Kimo Force
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:19 am

I agree.



EW: also wtf does SJW stand for? Stupid Jealous Woman?
Ryuuji Takasu: looks cute. but cute sounds girly. so ill say kawaii
Lesbihonest: damn kimo you have the sexiest male voice ive ever heard o.o
Rika Furude: no, that wasnt ripped from the Bible or something, it's one of Rika Furude's poems in Higurashi. Deep ****.
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Pumpkin Row
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PostSubject: Re: Vulgarity Debate (About WDA Chat)   Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:33 am

the only problem i have with vulgarity is talking about rape, and sex related things in general. i dont think cussing is really a problem.

pffft, i prefer good JJ.
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